Selling to Japan

[zefi]

I got this email today and my first thought was 'what a good idea - having someone who is willing to act as an interpreter/helper for Japanese people looking for a puppy'. The email sounds intelligent and genuine, offering a service which is probably well needed. After all, lets face it, most breeders (myself included) are so scared to sell a puppy to an Asian country because of stories they've heard. Yet surely there must be wonderful potential homes out there for puppies just as there are anywhere else in the world. So I thought I'd post this here for discussion. What do you think?

This is the letter:

Hello,

This note is regarding finding safe and suitable homes for imported puppies
in Japan.

I have written a bilingual English-Japanese classified ads web site where
non-Japanese-speaking breeders can meet suitable Japanese families who want
to import puppies. The dog ads are placed by top-level breeders in
Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.

The dog's safety being of prime importance, the service has several measures
in place.
1. Communications are between the breeder and prospective owner. There are
no middlemen, just a translation service.
2. We screen any applicant preliminarily by phone before forwarding the
inquiry to the breeder. We will have nothing to do with resellers, puppy
farmers, etc. We will communicate with the breeder if an applicant passes
this interview.
3. Then the breeder conducts a more in-depth interview (using this service
for translation if necessary).
4. By this time the breeder should know the prospective buyer quite well.
The breeder decides whether to export or not.
5. In the event that the circumstances of the buyer change after the dog
arrives, I will personally act as foster owner to the puppy as long as it is
not violent.

If you have any other ideas please send your suggestions.

The service itself focuses on assisting legitimate Japanese buyers who
cannot speak English well, or who lack confidence. We help them contact the
breeders directly, make introductions, translate, assist with import
procedures, and encourage the buyer to have an open long-term relationship
with the breeder. Follow-up by the breeder should follow as a matter of
course.

We collect our fees, for translation and import services, from buyers in
Japan; the breeders' ads are entirely free of costs and obligation. The
breeder's contact information is not published.

We welcome puppy ads and litters-due ads for all breeds. Even if you won't
have a litter due for some time, long-term ads are also welcome. If you are
interested in exporting your dogs to Japan please go to the website and take
a look around: http://geo.lyons-japan.com. Also if you dislike the idea,
please drop me a line with your concerns. Note, the site has already
generated quite a lot of discussion in the Dogz Online forums. Read about us
here.

Sincerely,

Mike Lyons
Champion Dogs Japan

[zpoodle]

Hi Zefi.............sounds quite interesting, I get MANY Asian inquiries daily(by phone and emails) for brown Standards(my main concern is getting them in to good family homes and not the puppy farms we hear so much about),...............I have sent several to Korea...............one recently finished his Korean Championship, I get many inquiries from Japan but the quarantine regulations are so very strict, My Mother breeds Pekingese(with whites being her speciality), we sent a white Peke boy to Japan last year and a parti boy to the UK, had to keep them both 6 months after Rabies titers were done(which is 30 days after the vaccination), so makes it impossible for us to send puppies, as they are about a year or more when all this is done, ..............is it different from your Country since it is Rabies free? By the way I have been looking into importing a brown SP from "down under" and had to pass right now as the cost of getting him here was more than his cost    The Pekes we sent to Japan and the UK also had huge shipping charges.

So I hope this site works out as I am sure like you said there are many wonderful homes out there just waiting for the right Poodle puppy to join their family

Hope to send some pictures of my Poodles here soon!

My handler says my brown Toy boy won another point this past weekend!!!

Mindy
Zorcon Poodles
Toys and Standards
Visit us at:
http://members.tripod.com/zpoodle/index.html

[Capanash]

I have received the same email. I my opinion it's not worth the risk of exporting, I prefer to keep my puppies local. Out of a total of 19 pups I have bred, only 3 are interstate (none overseas), the rest are in Melbourne. I don't need to export to be able to sell my pups, so it is easier to keep them local.

I know that there are bound to be some good homes there BUT I can't stand the thought of one of my pups living in an apartment and not being able to have free running. So I wouldn't even think about dealing with those people.

  regards Caroline

[auntie c]

through experience, it is very hard to get a good quality standard poodle puppy in australia  with all the doodle issues we have etc.. why do breeders need to export to these countries who do not hold their animals/pets at such a high priority as us... i am sure there would be a few that would be fabulous homes, why cant they access standard poodles already in these countries. are their absolutely NO standards being breed in these countries, you only really need one breeding female and import sperm..... why would anyone put a puppy through quarantine.......................

carlene, harry who and pearl the girl

[zefi]

Well the guy seems genuine - I saw his posts to another forum and from what he wrote to me privately.

I'm always polite, helpful and frendly to anyone who enquires about puppies, even the ones who most people wouldnt give the time of day to. I figure its better to be nice and educate than to be rude. I've had my share of nasties who are obviously doodle breeders in the making or millers and I get a ton of emails from all over the world regularly.

I also dont have trouble selling my puppies, however, being on a small island makes it harder to sell locally than it would be in a large city. Especially one where the standard of living for most people is so low as it is in Tasmania. Many potential buyers are stuck on the distance and wanting to pick up a puppy themselves, and not all of them are willing to spend the money for the trip down here. I'm not worried. I dont plan to breed tons of puppies and the ones I do breed I have homes for.

As for selling a puppy to live in an apartment... Loads of people around the world HAVE to do that. I have in the past. I raised 2 toys and one sp in a unit in Melbourne. Its not as great as living with the one acre fenced yard I have now, but I managed. You adapt. You walk them and take them to offlead parks. Not even everyone in Australia has a big yard.

The reason I posted this email and wanted to start up a discussion on it is that it sounded like a good and necessary service this guy is offering. After all, language is a huge problem. I have a lady who's been wanting to buy a puppy from me for a couple of years now but her english is so bad I dont feel I can ever get to know her unless she comes here for a visit. With someone like Mike's help I could find if she is indeed the wonderful home I think she is.... He can and will do the legwork, the interviews, the home visits etc. Its what he is offering as his new business. I think its a great idea providing the people behind the business are honest (which he seems to be).

I'm not saying I am going to take up his offer, I'm just saying that I think he's got a good idea there.

I did sell one pup to a home in Hawaii from my first litter and they are the most wonderful people. Zac couldn't be more loved. Ask Liz who's on this forum, she joined here after seeing Zac being walked by them. I'm not sorry I took the chance on them. I just think there are bound to be wonderful families all over the world and too many of us are prejudiced cause of the things we hear. There is a guy on Poodle L who lives in Japan and who owns 3 sps. He takes them to a park to play with other dogs and he says all the dogs there are loved and cared for. So there ARE good families there.

I agree, exporting and quarantine and long flights arent ideal... but then anyone who's wanted a good dog from a good breeder knows they arent easy to come by. Sometimes you have to go futher than you want to buy one, wait a lot longer than you hoped etc. I dont plan to sell a chunk of pups to an asian country... but I am also going to be open minded if the RIGHT people contact me and not write them off cause of their nationality. There are idiots and liars right here in our own country, there are people who will mistreat or neglect or even abuse their dogs, breed irresponsibly or whatever. The feeling of security you get from selling a puppy 'locally' is a false sense of security. Look at the first puppy I sold to a woman who seemed so NICE. She planned to breed unregistered poodles or worse, labradoodles! I had to fight tooth and nail to get that pup back and I was lucky I did! So whatever you do, you will always have to do a lot of screening before you sell a pup, regardless of whether its going one hour away or 22 hrs away.

Anyway, I'm rambling. All I'm saying is that I dont write people off with a wide sweep cause of anything like nationality or whatever... I take each person and each case individually and do the best I can to screen for the best homes.

[hawaiiman41]

Hi guys. I just wanted to add my two cents from the American perspective.
Now I may wrangle a few feathers and that is NOT my intention so please read on with the understanding that this is only my opinion and that I am NOT judging anyone.
From my perspective the attraction of buying a SP from outside the US is that almost all of the breeders here are ATE UP with showing their dogs. They live and die to get ribbons.  What does this do for the dog??? No more, in my opinion, than if they went into the back yard and played frisbee with them. The dog simply loves attention. The "show people" will tell you that only they have the wisdom to know what is good for the breed and therefore an idiot like me must sign a spay/nueter contract.  Or is this about money??? hmmmm ... say it ain't so joe!!! 
And here is the real clinker. You pay ten thousand dollars and someone gives you a blue ribbon and you now have a champion... BIG FAT HAIRY DEAL!!!  Your dog has not changed ONE BIT since you got it. Your groomer, handler, the AKC etc. have ALL made a few mortgage payments at your expense but that is about all.  Heck a good obedience school will at least teach the dog some skills that you can use.
With a show you have a peice of paper that says you now have a champion and you can breed.  OK... so now you can return the dog to a normal coat. Wash out all of that "hair spray"... dogs use hairspray in the wild right??? He won't have to be placed in a crate for hours at the show while the handler shows 12 other dogs ... all of whom are "champion" material... whatever that means.... grrrrrrrr!!!  Meanwhile Sally Sue gets points for her dogs because the judge likes the way she handles the dogs and her dogs "sparkle".... Am I on another planet???? Again, does any of this actually have anything to do with the dog?  Arfff  (that means no to you humans)
So in conclusion of my aimless ramblings.... come on all you show people... i still love ya... gimme a hug.. come on now...
I should have the right to spay/neuter or not. I have proven time and again in my lifes work that I am a responsible person. Saying that I MUST show the dog does not guarentee that I will not turn that champion into a puppy mill...  Just look online and you can see that. So if you want a top quality dog and you live in the US and you want to make your own decisions on spaying/nuetering then you have to go overseas.  (breath... breath)   ahhhhhh... I feel better already....      And yes I have issues.... haha... but you would never know it to meet me.

[auntie c]

i do hope you really feel much better, now you have vented that..

take care

carlene and harry who and pearl the girl

[Michael]

Well, as another American perspective, I will add some thoughts. For those that don't know, I grew up a with typical backwoods approach to dogs. We had German Shepherds and I never thought about a small dog at all. They weren't "real" dogs.....and poodles.....sheesh, no way! Yeh, I'd heard of dog shows...thought they were just beauty contests for dogs. We could always find "free" dogs when I was growing up, and I saw the ads for purebreds in papers for hundreds of dollars, and thought "sheesh...who'd be so stupid". So, surprise of surprises when I ended up working at a kennel later in my life....with show dogs...POODLES of all things! I did love dogs, but took the job because it was a job and I needed one at the time. Figured I could deal with poodles and so on. Well, it became more than that. I learned a LOT in my time there....and have continued to learn ever since.

Though it took me awhile to really get the "show thing" I began respecting it sooner.  Seeing good quality dogs and ones that were taken care of and all really impressed me. These weren't just show dogs....they were pets and personalities. Though, yeh, they lived in a "kennel" they also got to enjoy life as well. We made sure of that....we played with them, took them places, and so on. Sure, it's different than a one-on-one family and single pet situation, but I've seen households where dogs are not treated well, and these dogs were treated quite well. I began to learn that what I considered pomp and circumstance were a part of the poodle heritage and character. Not just some alien thing. And I learned about health testing and what it means. That it isn't just another way to spend lots of $$$, but a way to improve the quality of breeding in that breeder's plans. I've seen people hide from testing. Saw a lady that had dogs that developed PRA, and she hid under a rock...didn't want ANYONE to know. Around the same time, I saw another lady with a single dog that had proven to be PRA positive and she went overboard calling everyone that had ever bought a puppy from that bitch's breedings and so on.

But the big thing about "showing" is that the competition isn't meant just to be pomp and circumstance, but in an ideal situation, the "best" dog DOES win. And the more it wins the more it shows it "conforms" to the breed standard. Rather than just anybody willy-nilly breeding anything and calling it a poodle, those with titles behind their name generally tend to be better quality dogs of that breed! Better examples, according to the judges that are supposed to use the standard to go by. Doesn't always go that way, and every judge can still see things differently. BUT....that's why the conformation rules are setup so that a dog needs to compete and win actively to get that title. Not just show up and get a ribbon for it. So, in the end, titles are supposed to mean something. Sure, a determined person can title a so-so dog and a passive person might not get a title on an awesome dog, so it's not always even. Still, I know I've learned that those titles can, and often do, mean something. Sure, sometimes some people go overboard in chasing ribbons, but they hopefully have excellent dogs to be making it wortwhile.

On the other side of the coin are those that could care less. I've talked to many people over the years and a big thing that raises questions to me is someone who breeds and does NOT show their dogs....they usually say "they don't need to" or "it's not necessary to get a good dog". Well, it may not be necessary, but it does tend to separate the quality of breeding approach in a general sense. Because these people also tend to say they don't need to do any health testing, etc., and that it just adds to the cost of the puppy and they pass the savings onto their buyers. This is why puppy millers and BYB's make more money off their pups than a quality breeder might. Sure, a person could "luck out" and get a great dog from any source...even a shelter or wherever. And they might get a dog with no end of problems from a good breeder. BUT...read the contracts....from a BYB or someone with a low price on the dog with an ad in the paper you probably get a dog essentially "as-is". From a good breeder, you often have some guarantees in return. Even if it just means they've done all the testing and selection in the breeding decisions to get the best pups they can. Afterall, many breeders are hoping for a show quality keeper out of their breedings, so aren't just slapping puppies out for $$$. The pet quality dogs usually come out of the same litter that one or more show prospects come out of. But if they do end up with a show quality pup, why should they "waste" that on a mere pet home? If it will allow them, or someone, to title another of their dogs, and help with keeping quality dogs getting the titles, why should they sell elsewise? Pets to pet homes and show pups to show homes. I've been seeing this approach for years now. There are usually far more pets than show prospects anyway, so pet owners aren't out of the loop in that respect.

Now, let me add one more bit before going on. I had seen dogs live 5-8 years and no longer in some cases while growing up. Not the healthiest of lives or living conditions. So, when I finally saw dogs that made it well into their teens (some even early 20s!), and better health care and more diligent breeding approaches, I began to see that those dogs with "pedigrees" actually can mean something! And the more titles in the pedigree, generally speaking, hopefully the better quality of dog you will end up with. It's about stacking the deck in your favor....there's always the luck of the draw, but wouldn't you want the deck stacked in your favor if you could?

In fact, when I got into eskies, I had a decision to make. I was considering a shelter if I didn't go with a purebred dog. But having dealt with breeders in the past and having a healthy dog at the time from one, I knew that if I did go with a purebred, I'd be seeking out a good breeder. And once I discovered eskies and found them to be what I wanted at the time, I went with a better breeder in my area. Yep, I paid a nice chunk of change for her at the time. More than I would have with a cheap dog out of the local papers or even a shelter dog. BUT...I considered it insurance up front. Pay more for a quality dog now, figuring the deck is stacked in my favor this way, and I'd hopefully not have major issues down the road. Afterall...if I went with a breeder that does no testing, no showing, nothing....I'd know very little about the pup I'm getting. So, I figure I'd rather spend the money up front, get a good quality dog, and hopefully have more money to spend on quality food, toys, accessories, etc. for my new companion. So, yep, those titles mean something to me, even if I never show the dog! Seriously!

Now, I also have to admit another thing. I probably am not a "normal" puppy buyer at this point. I've made enough friends and contacts in the poodle world to get my foot in the door better. I might not get full register with some breeders, but I can work my way up faster than the average person probably could...just because of the showing/working connections and experience I've got. Same with eskies....moreso actually....I know I can get full register without problems as I've got tons of connections in the eskie world. Have had breeders offer me a quality dog if I ever want one! So, to me the spay/neuter thing isn't an inconvenience, it's a necessity to the breed. I believe that because breeders can only have so much sway over how things are handled once the dog is out of their hands. The only way they can "guarantee" the dog will be fixed is to not sell it until it is, but many breeders don't hang onto their pups that long, and lots of buyers don't want to wait that long. Thus, putting it in the contract and making various stipulations and consequences within it, are tools the breeder has to try to keep that in place. I've seen enough people in my time want to breed the most lame examples of their breed that I have full respect for breeders putting the S/N clauses in their contracts. Afterall...if a puppy owner only wants a "pet"....then what's the big deal there? If they can't accept that, then they have to accept that there are other doors and hoops to deal with. It's sad, but if everyone were honest, there wouldn't be a need for those things. But we don't live in an ideal world, and without those conditions being built into contracts, the breeds would be exploited FAR more than they are now! It's insurance on the breeder's part...in respect to the breed. NOT just their dogs!

So, in the end, I prefer to go with a good breeder, even if I'm just looking for a pet quality purebred. If I just want any old dog, I'll contact a shelter. Because I have learned a few things in my time....things I'd never planned on learning. And I have dogs that I truly love in the end...to me...they are priceless! So why not spend the extra $$$ up front to stack the deck in my favor? It will hopefully mean a few more healthy years together as companions! And that's important....because even show dogs are pets to many of us!

Now, on the subject of this thread. I think it's a really difficult thing to put a blanket assessment on. It all boils down to the individuals...on both sides of the sale. Sure, there may be "reputations" in some countries, but it doesn't mean there aren't good potential pet buyers even in those places. Just like there are loafers closer to any of us. So, if a breeder sells locally, it doesn't guarantee a great home! And being open to people from other countries is something I know I'd find respectful. I don't have any interest at this point in buying a dog from another country, but if I were, I'd want to be able to at least discuss the option with a breeder and see about working details out. Yes, crossing language, legal, and other boundaries is an issue. And that's what it appears this guy mentioned is attempting to do. Likewise with people in other countries, maybe there's a good apple here and there trying to do right. I'd assume he'd get a reasonable commission out of the deal as well....which makes his efforts worth his time. Which I'd find fair if it helps in making the right connections! And, though I might be a bit reserved with something like this, I would also like to know how it turns out. I wouldn't likely be the first person to try his services, but I'd want to know if it does turn out as he states and is worth the consideration. If so, I'd be willing to commend those efforts. Right now, I would reserve judgment, other than giving him credit for at least trying to do something that seems like a worthy service.

[hawaiiman41]

Michael, And I thought I was long winded.  I think it boils down to control.
Many of these people just plain have issues.
I told a breeder that I would HAPPILY sign a contract that said "if and when I ever want to breed then she would pick the stud and get pups back... but under NO circumstances would I ever show the dog". So...her "reputation" is protected, the dog is not bred willy nilly ..how could there be a down side?  The answer was NO.  She wanted ME to spend the ten grand to get a peice of paper that would give her more credibility.  All I wanted in essence was a show quality dog.  Why?  Because there is no doubt that they are the finest. And why would I settle for less? If they NEVER stepped foot into a ring they would still be the best. Agreed?
 
I agree with health testing and the fact that "good breeders breed good dogs" NO question about it.
So HOW does the show ring fit in here? It doesn't. It provides gratification for people and does not benefit the dog nor the breed in any way.  The dog would be just as happy chasing you down a dirt lane on a bicycle.
Hours sitting in a crate is good for the breed?  My dogs sleep anywhere they want and live with us almost like kids.
I have to disagree with you on the shows on another point as well. They are GROSSLY corrupt. That is just a plain fact. They may not be in every breed but I can guarantee the SP judges are for sale!  I have only been to three shows and saw the same handler at all three shows take all the chips home. She is nationally known and I have been told point blank by three of the top breeders in the country that if I want to finish my dog quickly then she is the person to hire.  And if that isn't corrupt then I don't know what is.  How about "campagning"?  Now there is another example of dogs exploited. The dog is already and champion and lets take the thing around the world showing it to see how much money we can make. Makes me sick.

The benefits of an organization like the AKC is , much like this group, the sharing of ideas.  Defining what the standard is and having good breeders do their best to improve the breed does not require them to go into a show ring.

The bottom line for me is this. I LOVE these dogs and I think that the best breeders breed the best dogs. There are a whole lot of byb's that do damage to the breed and they will never go away. Spaying/nuetering every dog that does not go in the ring is not the answer.  All it does is force people like me to buy inferior dogs that do have full registration and the inferior lines are mulitiplied. Does that make ANY sense?
Love to you all.... I hope you are having a wonderful day.
Remember a good debate can expand the mind and spark new ideas. I hope that is the spirit in which my writing is taken.

[zefi]

Wow... I've sure missed out on a lot huh?

Ok... Firstly I'm a little confused right about here... It seems to me that both H-Man and Michael are saying the same thing or similar but think they're disagreeing!

(and btw H-M, you are one funny guy!)

Lets see.... On the show thing, I agree with H-M, shows are mostly corrupt. Its rare that judges will stand up and award the dog they truly believe is the best without some kind of influence by who's on the other end of the lead. Its a bit easier in Australia as most dogs are owner-handled... but its not totally free of that. If you're a nobody, even with the better dog, you will most likely lose more than you win against the 'faces' and other judges in the ring against you. Sad fact.

HOWEVER... and this is the big however... without the show ring and the ribbons and the 'proof' (such as it is) that the dog(s) are worthy and good representations of the breed, breeders risk kennel blindness and breeding themselves into a rut. You need to be out there, to see whats out there, to pit yourself and your dogs against the other dogs out there to know you're on the right track. I'm not saying judges are gods who we must bow down to, just that at the end of the day, without the 'stamp of approval' and the pat on the back that the ribbons and titles are, you have no idea of knowing if you are really still breeding to the standard or if you've allowed yourself to slip to a place where your own tastes are dictating what you breed: a shorter backed dog that cant move properly cause you like short backs? It might look striking, but is it to the standard? Not many people can be honest enough with themselves to breed GOOD dogs without some outside feedback (like showing).

Do all breeders refuse to sell the show prospects as pets? No. I would personally rather see the magnificent dog I bred go to a home where it will be loved and cared for its entire life if it means its better off than in the ring. Sure, I would love for my puppies to be out there winning. But a great home is way more important. So... what are you saying? That you want a show quality dog as a pet? Great! All people should aspire to that!

That you want the right to spay or neuter if YOU want? Well... that could be a sticking point. If indeed you said and meant what you wrote about only using the stud the breeder approved of and letting her have pick pup(s) back, well that sounds good in theory. Providing you also do the health testing. Anyway, tricky subject as there's plenty of pitfalls there. What I'd say is that if someone asks me for a fully registered pup, that will not be neutered, but not bred and not shown... hm. I'd wonder what the full story was. Its hard to trust when you get caught out once or twice. If I knew the person and trusted them however... well I would be more likely to trust them to do the right thing. But why keep a dog entire if you dont plan to either show or breed? I dont see the point. Its so much easier to have a neutered pet than it is to have an intact one.

I dont get this bit: "All it does is force people like me to buy inferior dogs that do have full registration and the inferior lines are mulitiplied. Does that make ANY sense?"

If the dogs arent bred the inferior lines aren't multiplied and there's no problem.

No, it might not be the answer to neuter every pup in a litter thats not shown, but remember, a breeder will generally keep the best from a litter to breed and show thus those lines are continued. The ones that are petted out arent 'rejects' or inferior, but they are just not 'as good' as the pick pup(s) in the litter. They might have minor faults. Still great dogs, but not show quality. Thats why they are sold to be neutered, so as not to perpetuate the faults.

This is the bit I'm not sure I understand. I understand wanting a show quality pet. I understand wanting a pet on full register if thats what you want. But if you say you arent interested in breeding then why bother? Buy the pick of a litter from someone who doesnt care if you show or not, just that you love the pup and give it the best life.

I'm tired. I gotta go to bed!