The show ring....

[PoodleDoodle]

   As you all know,I am looking for a SP pup.I wouldn't mind stepping into the show ring, but I have been told that it is next to impossible for a newcomer to compete successfully. Is it really like that?

[Michael]

Depends. A lot of factors come into play. First off, getting a "good" quality show prospect is one thing. Without that, you probably will not do well in AKC shows. Getting a good quality show prospect can cost money, require "good connections" and so on. And then competing against the seasoned people in the breed already on top of that. If looking at it that way, yes, it can take some work, time, money, etc. Not something a newcomer just steps into easily. But, if you know the right people early enough, and build your reputation well, a newcomer can progress nicely.....though still probably taking some time, money, work, etc.! Just maybe not as much as without the connections and so on. Where you sit in all this will depend on who you know and where you get your dog from, etc.

If all that sounds challenging, or too many hoops to go through, you could consider looking into the UKC for getting your feet wet. The United Kennel Club is the "other" respectable registry in the USA. I'm more familiar with them through eskies, as the AKC did not recognize the breed until just over 10 years ago, and the breed was far more established in the UKC, and remains well grounded there. Though AKC is still considered "the" thing when it comes to rings, the UKC offers similar opportunities, just that it may not be perceived on the same level to those with AKC titles. But you can either go to poodle specialties or poodle only shows in the club, or multi-breed shows. Our Minnesota club has started doing MB shows the past few years and we've gotten a few poodles to show up in that time! In my opinion...if you've been to a "match" or other lower level show, that's about how a UKC show feels....much more relaxed and casual, but the same business transpires. Much easier to get into and get your feet wet. You can cross register any AKC registered dog with UKC through some paperwork and a filing fee. I don't have the links handy, but can look them up and post back here for you to look around.

I'd still say that even if you go through the UKC and get some titles, that you'd probably still want to "progress" to AKC in time. At least for your own sake and that the AKC titles tend to bear more status yet in the USA. You can also look into showing in Canada through the CanKC. Similarly, you can show any AKC dog with some paperwork and filing. The lady I've gotten my poodles from lives close enough to the border that she goes up there a lot and puts Can titles on most, if not all, her dogs! I think you said you are in PA, so that may be an option for you over there as well. Again, neither of these is AKC, but they both have their pluses and allow you to get into the ring, learn the ropes, get titles easier (not because of any lesser rules, but because there are fewer dogs competing overall), and build from there.

So....there are options and it depends on how you go about it. Even if you can get AKC titles, some people enjoy adding the UKC titles for greater reputation and sometimes just to fill inbetween AKC shows. In the AED (eskies), UKC titles are as important as AKC titles in many ways. Sometimes moreso. Anyway, it's something to consider.....and you can always keep your foot in the door to working toward greater recognition in the AKC as well.....but at least it's not all or nothing thing if you know where to play your cards!

[zefi]

This is a curly question for sure...

Michael touched on some aspects of it as far as showing in the USA is concerned. I have never been to the USA much less to show there, but from what I've read over the years a newcomer has pretty much a snowball's chance in hell of showing a dog to its title in AKC as an owner handler unless they have a GOOD mentor. Seems AKC is about money and connections - the right handler for one thing and they aren't cheap and they are harder to get your dog in with them unless you have connections. I could be wrong and there are always exceptions - someone will no doubt write and tell me that they were a beginner and owner/handled their dog to its title against top competition. Sure. Its just not the way it usually goes.

Getting a good quality show prospect is another thing. This is what I always tell people who ask me. Firstly go to some shows. If you know something about dogs it shouldnt be hard to go from one breed to another and quickly pick up what is good in the dogs you see in the ring. If you are a total newbie to dogs then its much harder. You have to learn all about what conformation points are judged and whats good and whats not. Most people dont have the knowledge or care for that and rush out and buy a dog that looks pretty from someone and learn as they go. Thats ok too. After all, the saying 'your first dog is never your best' is pretty much as true as it gets.

So... go to shows. Look and see the dogs in the ring. Read about the breed and what to look for in a good example of the breed. People interpret the breed standard their own way so one breeder will put emphasis on this, another on that. You will have to decide what YOU like and what you can live with or without. Once you know the look and type you like then you can narrow your search to breeders who have the dog type you like.

The next step is finding a breeder who will sell you a dog to show. Now, being a breeder myself I know both sides of this... A top breeder will most likely keep the best puppy in any litter for themselves to show and breed. IF they decide to sell that pup they will most likely sell it to someone they know well and who they know will 1. show the dog to its title, 2. do right by it in the ring and 3. present it well - as well as things like trusting them with the lines and a dog on full register, breeding etc etc.

Most wont want to sell a show prospect to a newbie because 1. most newbies say they want to show but very few actually have the stamina, the drive or the desire to learn, do the hard work (and it is hard work looking after a coat like that) so they give up. No breeder wants to sell a great show prospect to someone who will not show it and 'waste' the potential. 2. there is always the fear that someone you dont know will take the fully registered dog and then breed it without care or consideration or sell it on and it ends up in a mill. Ok, worst case scenario, but there you have the reason why most breeders are VERY reluctant to sell intact, fully registered dogs, to unknowns.

So... how do you get a good dog to show? Well.. you have to start somewhere. You have to learn the ropes. You have to prove yourself. Think of it as an apprenticeship. I started with toys. I got two toys to have as pets and both came fully registered. I didnt necessarily care when I got Scooter and he was fully registered, I just wanted a purebred registered poodle. When I got Billy and told his breeder I would probably do obedience she let me have him fully registered. I then joined the poodle club and started going to club matches and started getting the show bug. I showed and titled Billy (Scooter wasnt good enough). Along the way I learned to handle a dog, to brush and wash and groom and care for the coat. I met people and earned their respect cause I always had Billy looking great in the ring. I knew that when it came time to get another dog I would have no problem getting a pick pup cause the breeders would know that I WOULD title the pup I got and that I would do it proud in the ring. There is nothing worse than seeing a dog you bred and know is very nice being presented looking like something the cat dragged in... As a breeder I want my dogs presented in their best light. And if I dont like them I dont want them in the ring, simple as that. If I wouldnt show a dog I dont really want anyone else showing it.

Anyway, along the way I met Cherry and bought Pagan off her. Pagan isnt the best standard but she was my first step in that direction. She showed really well, she taught me a lot about handling a big dog and keeping coat. And when I bred her I produced Montana who was way better than her mother. If I never bred another litter again I could buy another great dog to show cause I've done my apprenticeship and earned the respect of other breeder/exhibitors.

I hope that helps and makes sense. For your first sp and first show dog, find a breeder who's dogs you like. Develop a friendship and build trust first. Then you'll get a nice dog which will be good quality and good enough to do well in the ring with even if its not Best in Show potential. Its the first step. It may be enough for you. But if its not you will have learned enough to take the next dog you get further.

Good luck!

[Neo]

I'ts lot of fun to read what you tell about showing, and beeing new in the ring.

here in norway, if you have a dog with papers, you can sign up, go in the ring ( not knowing what on earth you are doing) and do just fine

I didnt do that myself, because I had two great mentors, but I was not a good handler in the begining at all, but we got a cc, the first time he was showed in the junior class, (after showing in three puppyshows)

So here everyone can do it actually... all though its gret to have some "mentors" wich can help you outside the ring, with grooming etc.

but you would need contacts to get a good showdog though, but if you're interested in showing and learning how to groom them correctly, you could be lucky to get a good dog.

[zefi]

In Australia we show our own dogs so anyone can do it here too. But you do need help to learn about grooming and showing. If you're lucky enough to live in a city where the clubs  have handling classes then you can go to those to learn about showing your own dog. But you always need a mentor to help you groom.

[Michael]

Wow...Zefi added a lot of good insight on the show/breeding side there...simple, but good points. Nice! I second all of that. I've been less involved than she has, but have been in both AKC and UKC show rings. Though I know there are bigger shows, the ones I went to Australia were along the lines of what our UKC shows would be here....as for overall vibes and everything. Some of the larger Aussie shows probably get more like AKC ones. I've never been to a Canadian show, though both my mini's were CKC champions, of all things. I've known many people in the dog world over the years now, and could pretty much get my pick in eskies, and have some inroads with *some* poodle people, but realistically not many. I wouldn't be a complete newbie in poodles if I started with one in AKC, but I'd be fairly fresh meat for awhile. But as Zefi mentioned, when you know one breed, or have been in the world of dog shows in the past, you pick up new things a lot faster overall.

If I were to want to get a show quality poodle at this point, I'd go through the connections I have in the breed. Hopefully track something down I like and go from there. I'd probably go at least UKC and AKC if possible too, to build myself up over time. A newbie in AKC is going to have a lot of letdowns, so that's why I recommended the UKC...because you can do better faster there. And when you learn through positive experiences, you tend to keep moving forward. Instead of never getting anywhere in the AKC.

Though it's great if you want to get into the ring, I'd actually advise any first time poodle owner to not expect a first rate dog, nor top results in the ring. And don't just wait until you *can* have those things....you'll never get them that way. Do your best....get the best dog you can, but realize it'll be a training dog...for both of you. Anyone really wanting to show and do well in conformation will not just have one dog.....they will have a first, then a second, etc. It might not be until your third of fifth dog you really start getting traction, but you have to keep at it. If you do well, as Zefi has done, you can make traction sooner, but she's an awesome groomer and great with the dogs, so she fasttracks to doing well!

When I got into eskies, I hardly knew the breed, but knew I wanted to learn as much as I could. When I found Shelby's breeder, I liked her dogs, and decided to go with one. Sure, I could have hunted longer and further, but I may have only done marginally better. And I knew I'd be learning as I went too, so figured I can get a good dog from this breeder...go for it....learn as I go. I'm still learning! But I don't regret getting her when I did....I'm sure I'd do it all again the same way. I know better now what I like in the breed, and can be more selective in future eskies.

Similarly, it took me *years* to find things I truly loved about poodles. It wasn't until I was holding Amber one night that realized how much I loved the miniature size. After owning a poodle for 13 or so years, I was still learning! And still am. Though I do know more of what I'd look for in a poodle these days, and am hoping I can get a decent enough dog this next time to consider UKC showing or even more!

So....you don't just want to grab any old dog, but you don't need to be on a mission for the holy grail. Do some work, learn what you can, make connections (all the comments made in those respects are great so far), and go from there. Get your dog, do your best, keep moving forward, keep refining your approach, keep moving forward....etc., etc. Find local AKC matches, shows, UKC shows, etc. if you decide to try UKC, CanKC if there, and keep moving forward. Like the song "Life's a dance...you learn as you go".

[zefi]

Why thank you for the kind words Michael. He sure does like to build me up!

I was lucky in that my first poodle showdog (Billy) was good enough to show and do reasonably well with. He often got Dog Challenge or Best of Breed and won his class in Group many times. The best he ever did was Reserve Dog Challenge at a toy poodle specialty. Sure, it wasn't a great award but it meant he beat a LOT of other toy poodles to get it and I was told that there are many people who show for years and never achieve anything like that. That made me feel better. LOL

Pagan did better, getting lots of Challenges and Best of Breeds and a lot of In Group and In Show awards. The best she did was Runner up In Group 4 times.

Her daughter Montana won Best in Group many times, including at the Hobart Royal twice in a row (the largest show in Tasmania). She won so many In Group and In Show awards I have a wall of ribbons. And she did exceptionally well at poodle specialities as well. She would have gone on to do more if I hadn't cut her off due to personal/home commitments.

Its not that hard to title a poodle if you learn how to handle and present and it is of reasonable quality. In order to really do well however, you have to show a whole lot more than I did and really 'campaign' it, you have to travel (which for me means going to the mainland where the majority of the big shows are - and for me thats impossible to do often as its very expensive), and you have to have the money to pay for the travel. Show entries aren't so expensive in Australia as they apparently are in the USA.

So you kind of need to decide whats important to you: just having fun in the ring and earning a title along the way, whether earning a title is the pinnacle of achievement, or whether earning the big awards and striving for the top. I started at the bottom and worked my way through that list. LOL I just wanted to have fun and found that Billy was good enough. So I titled him. And I was happy to just title him, then to just title Pagan. But when Montana came along and I found I had a girl who could go further, I really wanted to go further. I just couldn't afford to campaign Montana the way I should have, cause I have no doubt I could have made her a grand champion if I stuck it out. She was about halfway there when I cut her off and she was just coming to her peak condition-wise. Oh well. Life is more important than dog shows.

So what I'm saying is that it took me 3 dogs to reach the point where I could not only do well and title a dog, but to have one that I could proudly take anywhere and know I could compete with the best out there. Its a process!