paying for champion lines or cheaper backyard breeder?

[treeleaf]

I'm trying to educate myself on poodles before purchasing one.

What do you think about buying a low-cost poodle from a family that home raises their dogs but doesn't do genetic testing and doesn't show them or have any champion dogs in their pedigree?  Do you think it worthwhile to spend the money on a show dog line with genetic testing?  We would be fixing/neutering our dog and it'd be just a family dog. 

I am concerned with personality and temperament but I'm not feeling I know anymore about personality and temperament from a quality breeder.

My mom did home-raise dachshunds for a few years.  I know those puppies were well loved and slept with us kids.  However, those dogs all had petit mal seizures (which didn't appear until later in life after they were bred) and some of the puppies had corkscrew tails and crooked ribs! 

So I think I'm leaning towards the genetic testing being important to me.  But I'd like to hear people's opinions.

[Sassysmom]

It was not an issue for me.  I look for things like length of ear leather, bite where teeth are concerned, check joints, confirmation.  I am sure there is an entire check list someplace.

My first silver came from a show kennel that did all testing.  In fact, this lady even showed at Westminster and all over the country.  She was a wonderful dog.

My second silver has come from a lady that breeds one or two litters a year, NOT from the same female in one year.  All of her dogs, she has about 8, are groomed perfectly, look and act healthy, and I found not one objectionalble feature on this pup.  She has been as good a dog if not better and smarter then my first and I never thought I could top my first one.

I think it is more preference.  Are you looking to show or just have a pet?  I have a very desirable pet quality and she is good enough that I could raise a litter if I find the proper male.

[auntie c]

most definately go for the genetic testing...

we are a small group of pet poodle owners, no show careers here for any of us. over the years all of us (12) have purchased puppies as "pets" and its only been in the last two years that we have all had to loose our dogs to all types of "problems"

cancer has been prevelant in 3 of our dogs, all going to the bridge before their 8th birthdays (all from different "breeders", non of which were related..
2 lived there whole lives with epilepsy
1 lived her 2.5 years of life with a canine version of Cystic Fibrosis
we now have a 2 year old who has been diagnosed with addisons

we are now all older and wiser and are putting alot more energy into the search for our next babies.

we believe in the old adage, the more you put in, the more you will get out....

goodluck with your search

carlene
harry who & pearl the girl
australia

[Michael]

Well, it's a call you have to make in the end, but I'll give you *my* perspective. I've seen all kinds of things over the years, and have learned (hopefully) a fair amount in the process. Probably my best situation to explain this was when I got my Eskie, Shelby. I'd already had Jamie for some years, and loved her dearly. At the time, I didn't think I'd ever have another poodle...that she'd be my only one. I wanted a *breed* that I loved and appreciated. Jamie had sort of adopted me, so it was more her choice to be with me. In the end, I came to appreciate the poodle breed more and after losing Jamie, I knew I'd get another...and now another after losing Amber since then too. Anyway, at the time, I wanted a breed if possible. I was debating whether to consider a shelter/rescue dog or find the right breed and go with a breeder. Once I did discover the eskie breed, it was down to breeders then.

But up to that point, I was in a dilemma.....because going with a shelter/rescue dog....though less expensive to begin with, I knew I'd be taking a gamble. I wasn't rich then (still don't seem to be....darn it!), and so deciding what was the wisest route to take was a challenge. Spend a $100 or so adopting a rescue dog or spend $500+ getting a dog from a good breeder. I tend to trend this way to this day....that IF you do know what breed you want, then a good breeder is worth the search and time and money. If you don't know what breed you want, or don't mind a mix or mystery, then a shelter/rescue dog may be a good choice. The problem I kept beating myself over was going with a shelter/rescue dog is just that....you're getting a mystery. You might get some health/history with the dog, but likely not....certainly less so than going with a breeder who's known that dog since day one. Thus, you may not know the pedigree or anything behind the dog......and what vet bills you may end up forking over down the line.....you never know.

Yes, it's a gamble either way. I've known people who have gotten a rescue/shelter or even BYB type dog and had no problems with that dog living a long, healthy life. And I've known dogs who have come from a *good* breeder that have been very expensive to care for over time with lots of vet bills, etc. BUT....those tend to be the exceptions and not the rule. Though there are always individual situations that can seem to prove this wrong, I believe that if you want to do well, go with how the deck is stacked. If you want the deck stacked in your favour, go with a good breeder who's done all the testing, been around for decades and knows their breed and lines inside and out. If you don't mind the deck being stacked against you, then a shelter/rescue/BYB dog may be fine. Just be prepared to take the risk.

And though that risk is a two way street, going with the deck stacked in your favour seems to be the wisest choice overall. Plus, many good breeders will guarantee the health of their dogs. If the dog *does* develop a health problem that was genetic, etc.....they will do their best to make it right with you later on. Sure, you can't simply replace a dog you've loved for 10 years when it goes blind from PRA all the sudden, but....if the breeder has a good contract and ethics, they have done their work ahead of time to try to reduce or eliminate that possibility...and even if something *does* arise, they will work with you to make it right...either giving you a new dog from a future litter, or a reduced rate, or something. It really depends on the breeder, but having a health guarantee, etc. is a HUGE deal in the end. If you get a rescue/shelter/BYB dog, you own the dog...including all its problems....especially future problems. On the other hand, if you go with a good breeder, they will not leave you high and dry if there are issues down the road. Plus, with all the testing, etc., they have done their best to try to remove that possibility from the picture.

So....when I did end up getting Shelby, that was my thinking.....I'd gotten Jamie from a lady that does tons of testing and has health guarantees in her contract, etc. I also know her well, so knew if anything came up, she'd be there for me. And I wanted that with any other breed I got too. I didn't want to take the risk of spending only $100 just to end up spending tons later on in vet bills, etc. I wanted some insurance up front. Spend more now....but have a healthier, happier dog over the length of her life....for less cost overall! To me...that's what I came to see. I'd rather spend the money up front for more assurance that I won't have to be spending more than need be down the line (especially in surprise health issues that could come up). Sure, there's always a risk and gamble....but at least this way, I was making sure the deck was stacked in my favour.

I still lean that way to this day. Though I highly respect people that adopt and rescue dogs.....I doubt I will ever do so myself. Not because I don't care, but because I want to invest in those that DO work to make the breed they care about the best it can be. I'd rather spend my money on toys and fun things for the dogs and enjoy our years together, than to be spending the time and money at the vet office. Again, always exceptions to the rule, but if money is a factor....bear in mind that you may pay the same for a dog one way or another.....would you rather pay up front or down the line? So, even if you think it's too expensive to buy a higher priced dog from well tested lines....maybe think again! It just might be the best investment over time that way.

Just my perspective, and it doesn't mean everyone has to think even close to that. I totally respect other perspectives that are well thought out and made in the end. I've known some newer breeders that tended to start out more BYB style, but migrated to doing the right/best things down the line. I've also seen breeders that do lots of testing, but it's more a charade to make them look good and to charge more for the dogs, etc., and they have tons of problems with their dogs because they are selective about the testing they do or report they do. So beware.....no matter which route you go, get to know the breeder. If a person says testing isn't important, or this or that, consider it a big red flag. If a BYB just has a few dogs now and then and admits their methods and that they aren't investing a lot in that at this point, are honest about everything, it may not be so bad. But even so....remember you are taking risks in doing so...if they don't know what's behind their lines genetically, how will you? So....take your time, get to know all the people and breeders you can, and go from there. A dog isn't cheap, but they are priceless in the love and companionship they provide in the end. To me...that's worth seeking to get a dog that's more likely to have a healthy life, so they can in turn have a happy life!

[zefi]

Ah... this is a serious question and one that takes a lot of discussion.

Firstly, its as Michael says you can never predict the future - I've met people who've bought puppies from the newspaper or a neighbour, usually mixed breeds, and who have had strong healthy dogs which lived long full lives. I've met people who've bought purebred puppies who've had heartache all their lives or lost them early. I've met people who bought BYB or pet shop pups who've had heartache and people who bought purebred dogs who lived long healthy lives.

There is no guarantee. No one can guarantee your puppy will be healthy and live a long life. Not the vet, not the breeder. I personally dont believe in guarantees. When you have a child no one can guarantee that that child will be healthy and live a full life. I think expecting a breeder to provide a guarantee is unrealistic. We dont even get lifetime guarantees on cars or electronic equipment.

What I expect from a breeder (what I try to do as a breeder) is that as much care as possible has been taken to minimise the chance of genetic issues or problems in puppies. Most caring breeders dont want to bring an unhealthy puppy into the world and cause pain. Some people dont care, some people are ignorant. Puppy millers and such simply dont care. Testing and screening interferes with profits. Pet shops dont care. BYBs and 'Bob down the road' may simply be ignorant. To them Muffy is healthy and fit and so is Fred's dog down the road, and since they're such nice dogs, why not breed them together and sell or give away the pups. They dont even think of health issues that may arise.

In purebred dogs generally, there is information on inherited diseases which can be tested more or less effectively. Where testing is available for something then, if a breeder cares, they should test. Most breeders do. Most BYBs dont as they generally dont really know about it, they dont know anything about pedigrees or belong to clubs and discuss dogs. Breeders usually think, breathe and talk dogs all the time. BYBs breed as a way to make money or as an accident usually. That would be the biggest difference.

Now... on the testing... Some tests are 100% effective. They are DNA tests. Unfortunately they are few and far between. Most tests arent that effective. The test for SA for instance is only effective if it tells you the dog has SA in that spot on that day. If the test comes back clear the dog may still have it or develop it later. After its been bred. And the puppies are already in their new homes and growing up with a timebomb.

I did the SA test on Pagan and Montana. I didnt on Meika. It seemed a waste of time. I know the dogs involved - parents and grandparents. Not affected. I figured that was a better indication. Older dogs who've had SA tests and are still clear are a better way to judge. A BYB wont know things like that.

Screening for things like good hips and temperaments etc are important too. Which is where getting to know the pedigrees and putting in years of knowing the lines and dogs comes in handy. I'm only just beginning to know dogs and lines now, after 10 years. A BYB doesnt have that.

There is always a risk though. We are all only human. We are at the mercy of the information we can get. People dont always tell the truth and often things happen or truths come out after the fact, after a mating has taken place and pups are older. Its how people handle this that makes a difference. People who've found out about epilepsy or PRA in a line and have notified owners of puppies and neutered and rehomed dogs they were showing or breeding from to stop passing on the problem.

As someone who's bought dogs from others, if I had a puppy who ended up getting something like that, would I expect the breeder to refund me my money? No. Not unless I knew they had prior knowledge and purposefully bred the litter knowing full well the pups WOULD get sick. Then I'd be angry. But most people do what they can to do right. And they use the tests and information available to them. And as I said, sometimes information comes too late. At that point, is it the breeder's fault? I dont think so. Would I want another puppy from them? Probably not! LOL I'm also human and I'd be too afraid!

I can see why someone would be afraid by the uncertainty of it all, the fear of finding and picking the right puppy from the right breeder. And yet, time after time, I am astounded that people who go on about health and wanting to be sure of what they get, go out and buy the first puppy they find even when I know that their questions about testing wouldnt have been answered the way they would have wanted them to be.

All I can do, as a breeder, is to be as honest as I can with myself and with puppy buyers. I tell them what I know and what I have done to minimise risks. I do what I can. If thats not enough they can go to someone else to buy a puppy. I will not guarantee health for life. I will provide as much testing as I have on my own dogs and studs going back as many generations as I can lay my hands on. I think health guarantees are unrealistic. I can guarantee that a puppy leaving my home is healthy at the time and that I have raised it to the best of my ability and that I have taken as much care as I can, with the knowledge that I have available to me, to ensure their chances of inherited diseases is minimal. I will be there and support puppy buyers in every way I can throughout the life of my pups. I will take them back and help to rehome them if it comes to that. Its all I can do.

If someone is that concerened they can start researching pedigrees and join the poodle health registry and do research. You'll find that there is NO totally safe and totally clear line when it comes to poodles. Its a small gene pool and all poodles go back to the same original lines. What we, as breeders, have to do is to take into consideration all the information we can get and weigh the risks and take a chance. If we didnt do that we'd never breed a litter. Every single litter is a risk to some extent. A calculated risk or whatever you want to call it.

My experience is that only 1% of pet buyers are that interested in all that background information. Thats why a lot of people buy from the paper, BYBs or disreputable breeders.

Here are the links I mentioned.

http://www.phrdatabase.org/pp_login.htm


http://www.poodlepedigree.com/

[spoospirit]

You raise a lot of good points.  The first thing we looked for in choosing our puppies was their personality/temperament as we were looking for dogs for service.  The second thing was a connection with between the puppy and one of us.  But, we did want the parents to be OFA'd and so on as it gave us a feeling of security that if the parents were clear, then the offspring had a good chance of being so also.  My sister did weeks of research before choosing any and all of our puppies.  Since they are all six months or under, I can't speak as to their future prospects in health and longevity.

We did make the mistake of buying one puppy from a pet shop with a good reputation.  The puppy had some faults, not bad, that didn't matter because he was to be a pet only.  Unfortunately, he also brought home with him tape worm which infected all of our dogs and cats!!!     This was a very expensive lesson for us.  Everyone is clear again but we will never buy from anyone but a reputable breeder with a health guarantee again.

This is not to say that puppies from BYB and pet shops are all bad risks by no means.  But one has to very careful in those situations  I guess I would say "Buyer beware!" 

[zefi]

Exactly what I say.

The saying 'you get what you pay for' isnt quite suitable in dogs ... since pet shops often sell puppies and mixed breeds for the same or more than a purebred! LOL I say 'a fool and his money'... 

[Michael]

Exactly on all that....that you can get gems or lemons from any source, but as I've mentioned, I feel it's worth stacking the deck in your favour when searching for a dog or puppy. The tapeworms story is sad, but not unheard of.....there have been many "ride-alongs" from various pet store puppies over the years and some truly heartbreaking stories.

BTW, Debbie....that is a lovely picture in your signature...do you have a larger sample of it online? Would love to see it if so.