Resource Guarding

[zefi]

Last night we had an incident here that, though it hasnt happened before, I kinda knew it would/could happen.

Pagan adores Greg. She hates sharing him or the couch with others.

Last night she and Greg were on the couch alone for a while, the other kids were in the rest of the house with me. All was well. Then Montana and next Billy both went to the couch to say hello to Greg and wanted in on the patting. Well Pagan went bezerk. Growling and chasing them both away. She'd always given low growls to keep the others away from Greg before, but this time she was really possessive.

Of course Greg instantly stood up, grabbed Billy who was in danger of becoming a tug toy between the two girls: Pagan angry, 'he's MINE', Montana ditsy 'oh! what fun! we're playing a game!'.

I instantly put Pagan in her crate for the rest of the night.

Other than managing (not letting this situation develop again) how would you deal with this? Pagan is protective of her special balls too when playing, but most of the time she is fine, even with food.

[zpoodle]

My best advice is doing exactly what you did,putting her in a crate ASAP!

I don't really see how in advance you could prevent this from happening, as you won't know it is going to happen until it does................just be aware of what can happen and how fast.

Some are just more possessive than others, this is something I have not had to deal with in the Standards............over the years I have seen Toy Poodles, who wanted no one nor other dogs around me or their "stuff"................it is a lot easier to deal with this type behavior in smaller ones than the Standards I would think.................

Good luck and keep little Billy out of the way!

Mindy
Zorcon Poodles
Toys and Standards
Visit us at:
http://members.tripod.com/zpoodle/index.html

[zefi]

I know what you mean Mindy. Usually its Billy who bares his teeth at anyone who comes close to me while he's in my lap on the couch. I wasnt expecting this. Normally when another dog comes up when I'm with Pagan on the couch she gets offended that I let them up and leaves! 

[Helen]

Zefi, I had to think about this a lot after reading it yesterday.  I didn't want to just leap in with a bunch of "off the top of my head" opinions.  It's too serious for that.  It wouldn't be so bad if it were just Tana, but with Billy so tiny, it makes it a lot more scary.  And just think what could happen if eventually it was a small child who got her pissed off.  Scary stuff.

I've been having to teach Chula to share "me" with Poco.  I've mentioned about her growling when the pups are too rowdy, and I do let her have her little growls if she's on the floor trying to sleep and they have decided to wrestle 2 inches from her nose.  She doesn't move.... just lets out a rumble, and they move away.

But she didn't like it when she'd be laying under my feet when I'm sitting on the couch, or just sitting by me, and Poco would come up to say hello and get cuddles.  Remember I was talking about the "claw hand" in the other thread?  The moment she'd growl, I'd poke her with my claw hand and tell her NO very firmly.  I bring Poco on up and cuddle him.  I am the pack leader here and she does not get to decide who gets cuddles. 

When we got Archie, a friend told us about The Dog Whisperer, Cesar Millan.  She loaned me his book, and we started watching all the tv shows where he is rehabilitating dogs that are out of control.  It's all VERY fascinating!  He works from the basis of dogs being first Animal, then Dog, then the Breed of Dog, and THEN.. little "Fluffy" whom we love.  He works in conjunction with the natural behavior of dogs.  In the USA, we tend to treat our dogs like "part of the family" and completely forget that they ARE dogs.  That they were originally wild animals and they all descended from wolves.  They still have the pack mentality engrained in their genes, and the pack order is still there inside them. 

So we got Archie last June as you recall.  At first, I really wasn't sure of how I should handle his interaction with Chula.  She's always been "my girl" and I had this feeling that she was "special" and should get special benefits because she's older and has been around longer.  Archie was the newbie.. the interloper.. and I was all feeling sorry for Chula because she had to put up with this "annoying little shit" that we'd thrust into her life. 

Well, letting her be "special" wasn't working too well!  She was acting like Queen of the House, and it wasn't boding too well for little Archie.  I kept watching the Dog Whisperer.  And he really impressed me on the fact that when you have dogs in your life, there can not be a doggie pack leader.  The pack leader must be ME!  And if there are other humans around, then they also are pack leaders.  NO dog can be OVER any person in the house. We are the pack leaders and ALL the dogs are our "pack". 

When Pagan is laying with Greg like that and growling at anyone who is intruding.. she is CLAIMING HIM.  She is being dominant and claiming him for her own.  Like you said, "He's MINE!"  This cannot be allowed. This is deadly dangerous.  (you already know this, so I'm not trying to lecture you.. just thinking out loud...)

First of all, I don't think Pagan should have been allowed to even growl at the others when they came near Greg in the past.  She should have been given a quiet command to knock it off.  When Chula does this, she gets my curved fingers in a quick touch at the throat (claw hand) and a "SHH!".  She stops and looks at me.  I pet the puppy, and  watch Chula.  If she relaxes, I pet her too.  If not, she gets more warnings, and when she finally relaxes, I pet her (still petting the puppy).

Okay, while I'm blathering on..

Throwing her into her crate was a good thing.  You HAD to protect the others.  And I'm so glad Greg was so quick and saved little Billy.  Yay Greg!  Good man!

What I would have done a little differently is this.  If this were Chula, I would have flipped her ("rolled her") on her side immediately.  Establish my dominance and place her into a submissive position.  I actually had to do this with Chula a few weeks ago when she went after Poco too aggressively.  To her embarrassment (lol), she found herself immediately on the floor, on her side, with my claw hand at her throat.  Exactly like a pack leader would dominate a bad pack member.  This didn't hurt her in any way.  But it told her in no uncertain terms that I was in charge and she was NOT going to do that any more!  I didn't allow her back up again until she relaxed and accepted the position.  Then I stepped back and released her.  She waited a moment, then got up, shook herself, and walked off.  The pups found it all fascinating, but she ignored them completely.  Poor girl.. so humiliated!  LOL!

So I've really had to change my thinking.  I adore my girl Chula.  She's my "first love".  But I can't allow her to think that she's in charge around here.  I am. 

I started to write more, as ideas for what to do to work with Pagan getting used to Greg loving on ALL the dogs, but I erased it.  I'm no expert by any means, and I don't want to start throwing out advice!  Opinions, sure , but I'd better not start thinking I know it all! 

But I would love to see you be able to read "Cesar's Way" by Cesar Millan.  Can you get that in Tasmania?  And if you have access to his shows ("The Dog Whisperer") then they are absolutely priceless!  All this is also available on his website, his books and his shows are on DVD now too.  His site is at http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

The only reason I'm saying so much, Zefi, is because I really hope you can find some way to deal with this.  Please don't feel like I'm trying to tell you what to do!  They are your dogs and I know you will do what you feel is best for you and your pups.  I completely respect that, so please accept all this as only "my two cents".

Good luck!

[zefi]

Thanks for your thoughts Helen. I know what you're saying and trust me, I've never allowed her to growl or claim me or Greg in the past when I was there. This time I wasnt, I was in the other room and he obviously didnt tell her to cut it out. As I said in a previous post, if others come up when she's cuddling with me and she doesnt like it, cause she knows I wont allow her to growl, she usually chooses to leave and let the others have me and the couch.

As for children... Pagan is SO great with kids. She has never been anything but gentle with a child, even when they run up and grab toys out of her mouth or whatever. When I lived in Melbourne for instance and I'd take her to the park she would chase joggers and bark at them (oops!) for daring to run past (till I got control of it) but she would never chase or bark at kids. Funny huh? When my brother and his kids were visiting me once I heard Pagan crunching on something and without thinking I asked my neice to see what she had. Maria took whatever it was out of Pagan's mouth and said 'this is what she had Auntie Zefi' and I almost died! I'd just let a 9 yr old kid reach into a dog's mouth!!!!!!! And yet Pagan just let her take it. Thats how she is. I've watched kids play with her and grab at her toys and take them from her and she loves playing with them.

I have no fear that she would ever turn onto a human being, especially a child. So that is not a concern. The concern here was her claiming someone as her own and not allowing the other dogs near him. As I said, she doesnt get away with it with me. She wont with Greg any more either I can assure you. Up till now she's been 'his girl' and he's probably been allowing her to take possession of him. Now that he's seen where that will lean he wont do it again. He loves the others just as much as he loves Pagan and he does want to cuddle with them too. Especially Billy. He loves holding Billy in his lap. So dont worry, he will no longer allow Pagan to 'own' him.

Basically what happens is this: I invite someone onto the couch, usually Billy only. The girls arent invited. They can have pats but not on the couch. Its really not big enough for all of us!  If I invite anyone else and they dont like sharing, they get off. Thing is, Pagan usually waits till I'm up and she will join Greg on the couch and is reluctant to give up her spot even for me. I wont allow that any more. Up till now I've included her in the couch time, but no more. Not if she wont share.

You know... she really is a man's dog. She might love her mommy, but she wants a man to be her human. Funny isnt it?

[Helen]

Glad to hear she's so wonderful with kids, Zefi.   It doesn't sound like you'd ever have to worry about her with them.  Whew!

I LOVE how you said that Greg understands now that he will have to change things a little.  It's so easy to want to have one be "your girl".  Obviously Pagan took it to heart!  I bet once she's faced with the New Greg, she'll learn right away that she don't get to "keep him".  I bet it all works out very nicely.

It seems like that's where I have a hard time with the pups.  Trying to get other people to not allow them to just take over.  We have people here all the time for my husband's work, and some of them make such a fuss over the dogs that sometimes it's a problem.  I end up having to crate them sometimes, and that's a shame.  We had one old lady who would spend so much time with the dogs, and bringing them treats and all.. it really became a problem.  We could hardly get her in to her appointment and out again!  Chula and Echo would just be WILD with excitement.  Argh!   That's not a good thing in a therapy office.  We finally started crating the dogs when she was coming.  She got all offended and stopped coming.

Well, good luck Zefi.